It
I’ve been online gaming for the last five years, and running this website for just over a year. Throughout this time, I’ve encountered everything from the downright hilarious to the outright disgusting. I’ve had guys tell me I sound like a little boy (and then upon finding out I’m a woman, tell me I “sound hot”), ask me to suck their dick, ask me repeatedly for “pics”, and tell me the only thing I’m good for is my vagina. Someone has also sent me a message telling me they hope I get raped and killed. Over a video game.
I’ve read countless suggestions on how to ”solve” the issue of harassment in online gaming, and I’ve run into a lot of people who seem to be angry that I’m posting about it at all. As if this website is just one big complaint, rather than a documentation of my experiences. More than anything I want this website to stand as evidence that there is a problem: Here is the proof. Here are the recordings. I’ve written about this topic before.
I get asked a lot about trash talking, and how the harassment that female gamers face is different than what their male counterparts run into. In a lot of ways, the harassment can overlap, and I’m not trying to say that male gamers never experience unpleasant language and insults. Everyone gets trash talked while gaming, it’s something that happens. But female gamers tend to be attacked specifically because of their gender, told that they are less competent and made to feel that they don’t belong in the gaming community just because they are female. And it’s a really fucking shitty feeling to be told that you’re only playing the game to be “cool”, or because it’s “fashionable”. Dorkly has an exceedingly accurate comic about this.
This has manifested itself for me personally in many ways, from being repeatedly told that I should get back in the kitchen so that I can make them a sandwich, to being questioned about whether I’m actually playing or if it’s really my boyfriend.
But today’s entry kind of takes the cake, because I’ve never been called an ‘it’ before.
RMP = Random Male Player
Transcript:
RMP1: It’s JENNY.
Me: I have a hard time like carrying a full party like this with my connection.
RMP2: What up, Jenny?
RMP1: JENNY! It’s JENNY!
RMP2: Hey guys, just because it’s got tits doesn’t mean it needs to be talked to.
RMP3: It’s name is Jenny.
RMP4: Everything has tits.
RMP1: Well. Jenny been making food for me, so it’s all good.
EMAIL: jennyhaniver@notinthekitchenanymore.com
TWITTER: @NitKA_Official
FACEBOOK: Not in The Kitchen Anymore
33 Comments
Grifter
06 Dec 2012 08:12 pm
I know you’ve said you play mostly CoD, hence mostly CoD posts, but I kind of wish you post stuff from other games, too.
I, personally, have noticed more vocal idiots in CoD than elsewhere. Which is not, obviously, to diminish the awfulness embodied by this. But I have to yell at and/or mute far less people on, say Halo 4, than I used to on Black Ops 1, or MW3. Though there is more corpse humping, so maybe it’s a wash.
But I am glad you document this for the rest of us.
Amber
06 Dec 2012 09:12 pm
Said it before and I’ll say it again: You are braver by far than I will ever be. And what you’re doing, documenting these things, will serve as proof that it happens. Stay strong, we’re proud of you…
btw that whole ‘it’ thing was disgusting and they need to go back to finishing school…
paul
06 Dec 2012 11:12 pm
In rehab (there, I said it) I was told that it is unreasonable to expect change in the world. It’s unreasonable to complain about things you “can’t” change, so just accept them. Therefore, AA has all those annoying sayings on bumper stickers that I refuse to put on my car. Keep being unreasonable. Someday you’ll be called a pioneer. Keep fighting the good fight.
And stay out of rehab, it sucks.
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"Hey Guys, Just Because It’s Got Tits Doesn’t Mean It Needs To Be Talked To" | Tux Doc
07 Dec 2012 09:12 am
[...] that Xbox Live, even in 2012, is home to some rather unsavoury chat. But the manner in which this salvo is delivered, and the reaction it receives, serves as a pretty tidy example of just what it’s like to [...]
Laetitia
07 Dec 2012 11:12 am
Hey
Just found your website, and as a girl, i am really happy that there is someone( you) out there speaking about this problem.
Keep it up, you’re doing great!
Jota Ha
07 Dec 2012 01:12 pm
First of all I want to say that while I haven’t read much of your blog, I sympathize with your problems and what you go through as a female gamer.
That having said, is it really that bad to be called “it”? I mean, maybe I don’t get it because I’m not a native english speaker and to me “it” is just a gender-neutral term, and what I got from the interaction was that that guy was actually trying to get the other guys to calm the fuck down a little and treat you like a normal person, not a “gamergurl” who needs constant attention (which I think happens as much as the sexist harassment and I would say is part of the same problem).
I get that it could have been said in a more sensible way, like using “someone” instead of “it”.
Roger
07 Dec 2012 01:12 pm
“Boho, poor me” is all I gathered from this article. Man up! Oh sorry should I say woman up? I don’t want to offend fragile oppressed you.
Max
07 Dec 2012 05:12 pm
For most of this article, Jenny is just reporting on things that have happened to her. Is "boohoo, poor me" the actual tone of the piece, or is that the lens you're putting on it?
Amanda E.
07 Dec 2012 01:12 pm
Being called an “it” is not a gender neutral term in English; it’s something you use to describe an object. Even an animal, if the gender is known, would not be called an it — you would use “it” until that point is known. So calling Jenny an it in this situation? REALLY offensive. EXTREMELY offensive. It’s essentially dehumanizing her.
Jenny, I dunno how I would have responded in that situation — I probably would have been shocked silent. Thanks for speaking up. This shit has gotta end. >.<
Michael
07 Dec 2012 01:12 pm
Gaming reeks of deep-seeded self doubt and fear of women, or for that matter, anything outside a warped and limited standard. Usually the things I witness online make me sad. But reading accounts like yours makes me downright sick and more than a little afraid for the world.
Dan Lo Bianco
07 Dec 2012 01:12 pm
I don’t know what RMP2 and RMP3 went on to say later on, but approaching this with no other context, I don’t see how either of them were intentionally referring to you as an it to be demeaning.
RMP2 was making a generalisation that they shouldn’t give you extra attention because you’re a woman- the crude construction he uses ‘because ‘s got tits’ require a gender-neutral pronoun for the contrast to make sense, and because you are the specific example, it’s not surprising he went for the singular ‘it’ rather than the plural ‘they’ (if he had, it would have been less ambiguous).
RMP3 picked up on the fact that it could be misinterpreted and used it to issue a correction… welcome to the internet, it’s full of pedants.
Maybe these guys later turned out to be just as bad as RMP1 (and to a lesser extend, RMP3) sound, but there’s nothing to indicate anything in this context and nothing to fully justify the outrage over being called an ‘it’.
From the looks of your site, you have many genuine complaints about what men have been saying to/about you and I do hope your site helps things to change, but this individual entry is a bit off the mark.
Anna
07 Dec 2012 01:12 pm
This could actually be taken two different ways. If referring to you as ‘it’ continued then I’d be offended too, but from the way it was said I took “Hey guys, just because it’s got tits doesn’t mean it needs to be talked to.” as more of a general line, or a slogan even, to remind RMP1 of something. In that context, saying “she’s got tits” almost seems redundant (in a very finicky way), in the same way that we use the phrases “It’s a boy/girl!” when talking about newborns, rather than “S/he’s a boy/girl.
That said, I can understand the anger or frustration, but I honestly don’t think this guy in particular was speaking with any ill intent, or even a condescending air. At least, not to you, maybe a little to RMP1. But as I said, if he went on to treat you as any other gamer, then that’s probably the way it was intended, with no feeling of superiority attached. If he then went on to treat you in a condescending/superior way…
RudeOnion
07 Dec 2012 04:12 pm
Wow, far too many people are missing the point here (especially Roger, but he seems beyond hope).
“Just because it’s got tits doesn’t mean it needs to be talked to.” is horribly offensive. They’re saying “don’t talk to ‘it’ – it’s just a girl”. Some people think he’s saying, “hey guys, just because she has tits doesn’t mean you need to be obnoxious douchebags.” If he’d meant to say that, then he would have said it.
JJtoob
07 Dec 2012 04:12 pm
This is why I’m glad I play games admined by people who would ban the sick filth, or on my clan’s servers where I can take care of the problem as soon as it happens. I am a guy, and I got really worked up with how immature and anti-sportsmanship-like idiots like this are. These people have no place on this planet, let alone the gaming community.
wukong
07 Dec 2012 05:12 pm
Are there really people trying to use overly-academic grammatical analysis in order to justify the RMPs sexist idiocy? Because I’m sure that they thought really hard about which pronoun to use to demean you in a way that was most roundabout and therefore most deniable. You know, those hyper-intellectual, gender-egalitarian male COD players don’t just throw out sexist remarks off the cuff. I like how RMP1 is attributed these superheroic grammar skillz and then throws out “Jenny been making food for me”, just to show that he can be street too.
Hey, let’s replace “tits” with something obviously racist and see if it might be any less offensive when making a “generalisation that they shouldn’t give you extra attention” because you’re different.
“Hey guys, just because it’s got dark skin doesn’t mean it needs to be talked to.”
Nope. Still offensive as fuck.
Oh, and by the way, I don’t know if some of y’all knew this, but sexism and racism do still exist even when the remarks aren’t directed at the ears and eyes of women or minorities. You don’t get to say “I’m not sexist because I wasn’t talking to it…her, I mean. Those remarks were made only for the ears of my non-sexist masculine brethren as we were discussing the natural inferiority of women, which is the natural order of things and not demeaning in the slightest.”
Idiots.
Dan Lo Bianco
07 Dec 2012 07:12 pm
I think you missed my point.
Expect these people to be crude. Being crude is not the problem- you come to expect it somewhat from the majority of the demographic, a demographic that enjoys Southpark or Family Guy and other sources of crude entertainment. As JJtoob suggested, they don’t rule over every nook and cranny of gaming, but they are prevalent in these particular public games and make up the vast majority of that player base.
The real problem is the asymmetric and sexist treatment of women within that culture, which is not synonymous with their crudeness. You have no argument from me that the ‘Jenny been making food for me’ is the type of comment that needs stamping out. If this article had been on a comment like ‘bitch, get in the kitchen’, or worse ‘it, get in the kitchen’, you’d have my support, 100%, that the mentality that leads to that kind of trash talk needs to be cut out, yesterday. These are direct, unambiguously sexist statements indicative of an unhealthy attitude to woman that should not be allowed to continue.
The problem is the article focused on a statement that wasn’t clear cut- it’s quite possible he was being sexist, but it isn’t unambiguously clear from the snippet we have- in fact, there’s plenty of evidence to suggest it wasn’t- RMP2′s “What up, Jenny?” sounds quite genuine- it could be a guy trying to play it cool, or a guy that is cool with it. His reaction to RMP1′s taunting ‘JENNY! It’s JENNY!’ could be lashing out at the guy for cramping his style- indirectly sexist- or could be him genuinely sticking up for Jenny by taking a stab at RMP1- ‘Dude, do you talk to anything that sounds like a girl?’. They are neither talking nor not talking to Jenny. They are talking at each other- Jenny’s involvement is incidental. You’re right, his terminology is not the result of deep though, but neither is it a result of ingrained sexism- only laziness and poor grammar.
Assuming that RMP2 is sexist, that his ambiguous comment was deliberately hurtful and treating him unilaterally as a ‘sexist idiot’ without a second thought, and any other people who defend him (not asserting that he is entirely innocent, just that it’s likely from the limited information presented) are equally idiots is just the type of absolutist thinking that is going on inside the heads of the people who perpetrate this kind of sexism. There is no question about whether the cliche in their heads applies to everyone, discriminatory people just apply it liberally to anyone who vaguely fits the profile.
wukong, you have no argument from myself or anyone else who feels sexism is wrong over RMP1′s comments, but with RMP2 there is reasonable doubt, and you really should question your willingness to at least attempt to see where we’re coming from and the possibility that there might be something to it. I’m not asking you to absolve him of sexism, just admit that there is a possibility that his comments are at best thoughtless, not malicious, and RMP2 is hardly the poster child against sexism. We’re not being overly academic to justify sexism, merely root it out where it exists instead of polarising the issue with an irrational no-prisoners approach that makes things worse.
Dan Lo Bianco
07 Dec 2012 07:12 pm
Quite tellingly, I came here expecting an article from a developer about how male players attempted to talk every female NPC in a game, even the ones with no lines. It’s not hard to see that being the spirit of the comment, both in and out of context- a stab at sexist men.
srinivasa
07 Dec 2012 10:12 pm
I’m really sorry you (specifically and women in general) have to put up with this nonsense.
“Hey Guys, Just Because It’s Got Tits Doesn’t Mean It Needs To Be Talked To” | Oh Emma Top
08 Dec 2012 04:12 am
[...] that Xbox Live, even in 2012, is home to some rather tasteless chat. But a demeanour in that this storm is delivered, and a greeting it receives, serves as a flattering neat instance of only what it’s like to [...]
Anna
08 Dec 2012 03:12 pm
To clear things up, I never intended in my comment to say sexism isn’t a problem. I read these articles because I’m well aware it is, and I’ve seen a little firsthand (although thankfully not much).
My point was, I tried saying RMP2′s line out loud, and similar to saying “It’s a girl!” at a child-birth, it seems to sound, well, redundant to say ‘she’. It was a crass way of saying “Because she’s a girl.”, and it kind of seems redundant to specify gender. Try saying “Because blue is blue” or “Because it is blue.”
I wasn’t analyzing or carefully crafting what I said. It just came out that way.
What irks me is that there’s this assumption that because it could have been a horribly offensive comment, that must be what he meant. Because he’s a male gamer. Which shows the same attitude he’s being accused of going the other way. After all, there would be no real reason to say it at all in the context to be intentionally sexist, and it has every air of him trying to tell someone to calm down who’s being dumb.
Also, sorry about the length, I had wanted this to be a short comment, but while typing this it occurred to me why it seemed more natural. Taking it out of this situation, and not claiming to know HIS intentions, I would say it that way to point out that gender is a non-issue here. I would mean “it” as “this human being” or “this gamer”, and disregard gender entirely. The word “it” is usually given to inanimate objects because individual humans have genders which have pronouns (he/she). Gamers don’t. Gamers can be male or female. “Hey guys, just because [a gamer]‘s got tits doesn’t mean [the gamer] needs to be talked to” being said to someone who’s getting over-excited and bothering someone because they’re a girl doesn’t sound so bad, no?
Besides, since he’s talking to someone who obviously sees males and females differently, would you point out the femaleness – which the other gamer obviously thinks of differently – or the fact they are first a gamer, then a gender (at least in this situation).
I’m sorry if I haven’t been very clear, and for making my comment so long. I just don’t like people jumping to a conclusion on something that’s ambiguous like this. He might have been, but I think there’s a chance he wasn’t too, and it’s only fair to try to see both. I still have no love for “Well. Jenny been making food for me, so it’s all good.” since that can’t really not be sexist.
Hope I’m making sense now
Anthony
08 Dec 2012 10:12 pm
It is entirely possible that RMP2 didn’t use ‘it’ in a demeaning way. Whether or not that was his intent, though, that’s how it came across to Jenny. If he didn’t have bad intentions, then an apology and an understanding of his mistake could fix the situation. Of course, there is no way to figure that out. Referring to a male or female as an ‘it’ is often used in an incredibly negative way. One would need to be very careful before making a comment like that, because it can be easily taken the wrong way. If we assume the very best case scenario, then he’s guilty of really bad word choice. But none of this should take away from the way Jenny felt. Given that she posted this, it’s fair to say that she felt offended by the comment. So maybe we can take her judgement as proof that it was an offensive use of the pronoun.
OutSource
08 Dec 2012 11:12 pm
I think pretty much anyone who has played online games is well aware that sexism (including the fawning variety that I’ve not seen anyone lamenting) is happening. I can understand that this post serves as a way for you to document your experiences, but I think it is a bit disingenuous to suggest that it is not also a “complaint”. The only reason this event is significant enough to post is because of its relationship to a perceived problem.
I’m not unsympathetic to the problem. I don’t like sexism either, but I think posts like this, as well as the Kotaku post that brought me here, serve little purpose in terms of solving the problem. Standing on a soapbox screaming about the fact that there is a problem is not going to do anything to fix it. I think any honest person who has played a decent amount of online games knows that sexism is real, and pervasive. The reason you get a lot of people telling you how to deal with it is because there is no real way to force a huge group of people to be nice. I’ll assume you’re not under the delusion that the people who treat you poorly because you’re female aren’t aware that you don’t like being treated as such. They do it because you don’t like it, and nothing you or anyone else writes on the internet is going to stop it from happening.
I think the reason people call this “complaining” is because it’s just put out there as if there’s something the reader is supposed to do about it. Well I don’t insult women online (or anyone else for that matter), and I do what I can to get other people to do the same. What else is there for me to do? Some people on the internet are sexist towards women, and women don’t like it very much. If you’ve got a solution then we’re all ears, but I don’t see what purpose is served by constantly having that fact thrown in my face as if it’s my fault.
Anthony
09 Dec 2012 06:12 pm
So what is the solution? Don't talk about it? And, I'm sorry, but how is this shoved in your face? Did someone force you to come here? Is the majority of the internet all of a sudden blogs talking about abuse in gaming? If so, I really missed that transformation.
The reason to bring this up is because not everyone knows about it. And not every who knows about it is actually doing something about it. And not everyone who knows about it is aware of how absolutely atrocious things can really be.
Also, the only reasonable solution that I can come up with is a complete culture change. And the only way to achieve that would be to raise awareness until every decent person is on board with the change. Despite how many mean people are out there, decent people still outnumber them. It's just that apathetic decent people are the vast majority. So it's all about changing their opinion on doing something. In that vein, this is complaining. This is simply presenting.
OutSource
I don't have a solution. The attitude changes that cause these kinds of problems can take DECADES. I never said that this particular post was shoved in my face. I was referring to this subject in general. It pops up on all the major gaming news outlets on a fairly consistent basis.
"The reason to bring this up is because not everyone knows about it."
Really? Because I'm pretty sure just about everyone who has spent time playing online games has seen this behavior in action. This isn't even a gaming specific problem. Sexism is rampant everywhere online. There's nothing special about gaming, it just so happens that online games are a common point of contact for anonymous females and anonymous males. Not to mention the fact that the people who are actually responsible for this harassment obviously know about it. Even when there are no females around to see it, males will see sexist jokes and comments being made frequently.
If the goal of raising awareness is to get people to put themselves out there and push back against the sexism, then why don't people say that? Why is that not the message that people are blaring all over the place. That very simple direction is probably the most important part of changing dominant attitudes.
Anthony
12 Dec 2012 06:12 am
For the sake of ease (if you come back to this thread), I'll just put my response to your responses right here.
The amount of time that something like fixing our fucked up societal attitudes may take is irrelevant, as least in the scope of, "What is a solution?" And it's really interesting that you come to a place where something wasn't shoved in front of your face...to complain about other people. Hmm... What solution are you looking for?
Not everyone is aware of the myriad of different examples that sexism/other forms of hate take on online games. If a person never plays CoD or Halo or any other game like that, it's really hard to get a good feeling of what it's really like. And it's not just about raising awareness about the comments being made, but about the impact they have on people. I'm sure a lot, maybe even a majority, of the people who make comments like these are aware of exactly what they are doing. But other people aren't aware. One of the main defenses for this kind of behavior is that it's just a joke, but the intent doesn't really matter if this is the result. Not to say crucify anyone who makes a joke that upsets people, and not to say never make an off-color joke or comment, but these kinds of remarks contribute to the attitude that a lot of people agree needs to be changed.
One potential reason that there is no widely broadcast-ed solution is because I don't think one has been found that works in every situation. Rarely will the exact same approach work in any two different situations. Sometimes you need to ignore the dumbass remarks, sometimes you need to educate the person making them, and sometimes you need to stand up against them. And each one of those methods can be broken down into their own individual standards. And, to circle back to the awareness point - you weren't able to come up with a solution at all. That's why sites like this exist. So comments like this exist. So that people like you can come here and ask what the fuck do you want me to do, and then people like me can answer. It's not about complaining or whining; it's all about creating a space where a discussion can occur.
Your initial post, from my perspective, had an attacking stance and came across a bit pretentious. Summed up, it pretty much says, "Here's another example of sexism. You aren't doing anything to solve the problem. Posts like this do nothing to solve the problem. Talking about this on the internet does nothing to solve the problem." At least, that's how it appeared to me. This is written word, so it's easy for things to get lost in translation. But you don't seem very sympathetic to the issue, so that was why I initially responded (and maybe a bit too harshly) and why the other people responded. After reading your other comments, I think you really just wanted to say, "Hey, what should we do about this? There aren't any solutions detailed above, and I could use some pointers." And then maybe talk about how you disagree that this isn't a 'complaint,' which you are more than welcome to do. Complaint or not, doesn't lessen the issue at all.
wuk0ng
08 Dec 2012 11:12 pm
Nice. Blame the victim for speaking up without having a solution because it’s her responsibility to not only bear the brunt of the bullshit but also to have the wherewithal to convince people that she’s got the ultimate answer.
But you’re right. There is no real way to force huge groups of people to be nice. That’s why there were no major civil or gender rights movements with concrete results within the last century. There were just a bunch of people complaining about stuff everybody else already knew about but didn’t know how to fix.
OutSource
I no sense did I "blame the victim". Yes, forgive me for expecting the people most affected by a problem to offer up some kind of solution, or to at the very least, to initiate a conversation about solutions. Who IS responsible for solving the problems of other people? Women need not pretend that they have "the ultimate answer" to move the conversation towards what can be done about the problem.
First off, this is not an issue of gender rights. This is about social acceptance, and inclusiveness. The movements you referenced weren't filled with people who were just complaining about the way they were treated. They had demands. They knew what they wanted, and they would tell you exactly what it was. If you look at the history of social movements, you'll find that being vocal about what you want almost always plays a decisive role in whether or not you get it.
Anna
09 Dec 2012 03:12 pm
Oh, don’t get it wrong OutSource. This is a complaint. The issue comes when people claim it’s just pointless whining. the purpose of this blog is to present evidence of the problem to validate complaints. Not whining about how people in general are mean, but specifically the way females are treated.
You may say it achieves nothing, but raising awareness is incredibly important. for one, every person who reads this and comes away disgusted is one more person who will either never do it again, or stand up and say “Dude, don’t be a dick.” When someone else does it. It’s no coincidence that most charities will list one of their key concerns as “raising awareness of [their plight].”
And as Wuk0ng said, standing on a soapbox does help, in that it raises awareness. It acts as a testimony to everyone who gets stupid comments like “Stop complaining about it and it won’t happen.” which makes no sense. It makes individuals aware that they can help make a difference merely by objecting when they see it happen, and to the authorities (in this case, those who moderate the game) that there is an issue.
Besides. You can’t expect the victim to not only bear the brunt and take action, just as there’s nothing in this blog saying that the readers have to take action. Just that there is a problem that needs solving.
Sorry. I’m starting to sound really preachy here, aren’t I? ^^;
OutSource
As I said to Wuk0ng, my objection is not that people want to talk about the issue, my problem is that people are just complaining when they should be talking about solutions.
If what women want is for men to stand up and call out their peers for their sexist behavior, then they should fucking say so. I know that this might come as a shock, but you're far more likely to get what you want when you actually tell people what it is.
This simple change in the conversation takes you from a position of perceived helplessness, and puts the burden on the community members who sit by while this stuff happens.
raichu
10 Dec 2012 08:12 pm
YouTube’s Octopimp dubbed that comic you linked just the other day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nrxCSSjIYs&feature=g-user-u
This entry just blows me away. “It”? Really? =(
wuk0ng
17 Dec 2012 03:12 pm
“Yes, forgive me for expecting the people most affected by a problem to offer up some kind of solution, or to at the very least, to initiate a conversation about solutions.”
Yup. Because bringing attention to it isn’t initiating a conversation at all.
As for your statement about this being about “social acceptance and inclusiveness” and not being about “gender”, let me fill you in on a revolutionary fucking idea. You ready? This is going to blow your damn mind.
Social inclusiveness and acceptance are EXACTLY what gender and racial equality movements aim to achieve, to move a whole class of human beings from a socially marginalized status to one of equal social standing.
But hey, I’d love to hear more about how this isn’t about gender. Lay it on me, bra. Let’s talk about how this is just simple discrimination and othering that has nothing to do with the fact that Jenny is a female, cause that’ll make it so much more acceptable. Maybe it’s not about gender at all! Maybe its about ideology, or sexual orientation, or age, or something else a little more acceptable than big, bad gender.
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